Yeah, you’re right!
Multi object editing is also a good adition, all the other stuff, we already had before…
We didn’t have anything on that list actually, we had some kind of x-ray, but only for the active object and only in edit mode, maybe the ambient occlusion, but it was different and it didn’t show the edges.
Anyway, I was asked to bring arguments (and then “muted”, strange stuff happens on the internet) but I don’t frankly think that Alberto would ever change idea whatever we say, he already decided; if the main assumption is that 2.8 should basically be 2.79c then the discussion doesn’t make much sense at all.
I’ll answer about the key changes anyway:
- I’ve already explained in another thread why I’d keep Tab as an edit mode toggle: is the easiest key to press from (at least mine) rest position, and I like to switch back to whatever mode I was working on, instead of having to press the related number. I like 1-6 as modes change though.
- About having a pie menu for the modes I’m sceptical, I wouldn’t want it on Tab for sure, not as a single press thing at least; also, having a pie menu for such an important feature would require to use them for a lot of other stuff too imho, for consistency.
- I don’t feel the need of having 1,2,3 for vertex/edge/face selection, I’m ok with pressing 2, I’d prefer a cycle though, instead of just the pop-up.
- I don’t feel the need of WER either, I like G,R,S.
- About the search function: I’m indifferent about keeping it on space or not, I use it a lot but I would be ok with having it on Ctrl-F for example, or with double space.
- I think that Space + related key for the active tools can be a really fast workflow once we get used to it, but it hasn’t been completely implemented yet, so we’ll see.
-
LMB select: If that will be the default I think I’d reverse it, cause I’m too used to the right click. But maybe it can be good for new users.
.
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I would like cancel this.
Industry standarts are too lame, so we deserve best.
(I especially love 3dsmax keymap, that is looking like it was made by a student with a hangover in monady’s morning, and whole Autodesk navigation, that was obviously made in the same conditions)
No changes required.
Man, I feel for the developers.
I think, at the core of this issue, is really the need to have a keymap that the average professional/user will be able to do things they take for granted in a similar program, such as left-clicking for selecting, click&dragging for box selection, clicking “out” to deselect, etc., while making sure the keymap is coherent and functional (unlike the current 2.79 where the user will eventually run into problems trying to make such a keymap).
The plan seems really sound to me: Creating a minimal keymap that favors Maya for modeling/animation, and Z-Brush for sculpting (because, like it or not, these programs are considered standards in their respective fields). Personally, I won’t be using this keymap, but I completely support the effort behind it.
But I support the effort especially for what I hope it will entail. That I will finally be able to:
- Create a coherently functional left-click keymap without fighting Blender’s right-click DNA
- Customize any command without being forced to find workarounds due to hard-coded shortcuts
- Easily customize Pie Menus that can:
a. Contain context menus, or custom menus
b. Dynamically call Pie Menus based on context of mode and type of object the mouse is over
c. Allow commands that bypass modes (e.g. Being able to enter the “Face” editing mode straight from the Object Mode)
d. Through directional gestures, also quickly trigger nested menu items
In my opinion, the first two has to happen. The third is a really nice ability many industry professionals customizing Blender will surely appreciate. I definitely will. I’ve been really, really wanting to since I first started really using Blender, haha.
While I don’t need Blender to copy the keymap of my choice, I want it to allow me to copy the keymap of my choice. In the end, that’s really all that matters with keymaps in a production software (Well, maybe UI in general) because everyone ends up developing their preferred workflows.
I would love a developer’s feedback.
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I think that today blender already allows some things that you comment. For example having a 100% custom keymap. And unlike some comments that say that blender doesn’t work well if you use the default left click, I think it actually works perfectly (not in blender2.8, which I haven’t thoroughly tested everything).
But I still think that an industry standard keymap is something that few people will use because it’s not what people are looking for in the first place.
It looks like an optional “industry standard” keymap is planned: https://developer.blender.org/T54963
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I wouldn’t say 100%. Maybe more like 95%. So close, but not quite there enough to be an everyday bother.
I’ve had an exchange with some developers via a bug report some time ago of not being able to customize certain hotkeys. They are also aware of hotkeys that can’t be changed (e.g. Pablo states axis hotkeys can’t be changed in one of the Blender Today streams) and at least one of them talked about this very fact of how Blender doesn’t completely accommodate left-click keymap (e.g. AFAIK, you can’t change how to select active bone while in Weight Paint mode).
In other words, this isn’t a non-issue.
And, of course, everything about Pie Menus that I mentioned aren’t possible.
Why are you trying to setup a whole “Industry standard keymap” in first place?
Its far more easy to just learn current keymap.
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There are several use cases where another keymap makes a lot of sense. If people are not using Blender on a regular basis, it is for sure easier to use something that is closer to the usual conventions.
Another use case is when you often switch between applications. I often switch between Blender and Unreal or Unity. It easily throws you out of your flow when you consciously have to make a mental switch to relatively different conventions.
I really dislike the idea of trying to create an industry standard keymap. It’s just going to feel like a mess imo, but then I don’t have to use it, so whatever.
But as @0o00o0oo pointed out the real problem here is that you can’t customize the shortcuts 100%. The whole shortcut editor is also a mess. There’s several shortcut related bugs. Plugins can sometimes override your shortcuts. There’s very little space for customization unless you can code your own menus. I could go on and on. I keep a completely custom keymap and it was absolute hell to make, it took me 2 weeks to make (other programs take me a day, maybe two). If it were easier to customize you’d see way less people complaining and having imo pointless arguments about where a certain key is going to be in the default keymap.
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I love that you guys are saying “the interface is changing, so I’m switching software.” Do you think the software you switch to will work like blender 2.79? I don’t understand. Show more respect for the developers. They are listening to constructive criticism and making changes accordingly.
I think the idea that everyone is going to jump ship because Blender is making some changes is ignoring the fact that the improvements that Blender is making has everyone in the industry’s attention. I believe that the net result is that 2.8 will bring MANY more users into the fold just as the changes to 2.5 did. Not sure if you guys were around for that, but my understanding is that just as many (if not more) users were complaining about those changes and threatening to switch to other software. This didn’t matter though, because since the 2.5 release, huge numbers of people STARTED using Blender. Could you imagine going back to version 2.4?
More users is a good thing for Blender. It means more money flowing into the foundation. It means more talented artists and developers making this great software and the community around it even stronger. I’ve never felt better about my tools than right now. I’m sorry you don’t feel the same way.
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I would like to know where in the marketing rules it is placed “changing the hotkeys arbitrarily brings more users”.
Of course not, blender will be so different that I will have to buy a bigger monitor due to the topbar eating space and a bigger GPU due to the higer requeriments.
Well, if anyone ever says that you have a rebuttal already prepared.
The developers are well aware that there are quite a few people who don’t like the extra screen space being taken up and are experimenting with alternatives.
The thread is about shortcuts, you defend the changes because will bring new users. Please, explain why move shortcuts like searchbar will bring new users
It will not bring new users, we, long time users bring new users, with tutorials…
The expectation of devs is that it might make life easier for new users by making life harder for long time users.
Its a bet, If done right we get replaced as user base by a bigger one and if done wrong, blender will get low popularity again.
but I can’t avoid making this comparission because thats how I feel blender:
Blender 2.7:
Blender 2.8:
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Ok. Maybe you aren’t following 2.8 development very closely. This thread is about the Industry Standard Shortcuts OPTION. This is an optional keymap that new users can choose. This is not forced on you. I simply said that the entire industry is keeping their eyes on this release and 2.8 WILL bring a huge number of new users.
Please, please, please keep in mind that anything you’ve seen up to this point is an alpha release and much will change before we get even to beta. Also, try to stay positive and stop whining.
If you look back, I never once said anything about moving the spacebar shortcut or any other aspects of the optional shortcuts will bring new users.
So the thread that I opened weeks ago is about what you want… i think that you must read a thread before write anything…
The thread is about shortcuts?
So…It isn’t about shortcuts? I’ve read the thread and responded to things that people are saying, not what I want them to be saying just so I can continue arguing. I can tell you’re upset. Just remember that you are upset about unfinished software and that responding harshly to people who show alternative opinions doesn’t accomplish anything.
Enjoy the rest of your evening or whatever time it is where ever you are. Truly try to relax and have a beer. Life is too short to complain about unfinished work. If I came into your studio right as you are starting a project and say “that’s not a character…that’s just a subdivided cube.” That wouldn’t help you at all would it?
Hey guys, I may be wrong but it sounds like a fight, I dont like to make discussions but.
We are complaining about the concept.
He is right about that, it will be optional and the biggerstest change to the standard keymap, the removal of tab to editmode was already reverted. I just dont like how small the viewport become now.
I am upset too, I worked a lot to learn blender and work with it, its my tool but for the devs its their toy. I would like to trust the foundation but their goals are way unclear. It will be the tird time I have to buy new hardware just to use the updated blender.