Blender 2.8 industry standards already please

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41

To have this discussion again seems to me an absurdity and a waste of time because everything has already been more than argued and explained.

Yes, blender has or had strange things in his UX, but is trying to solve almost everything. Although there are things that still need to be fixed.

No, there is no Industry standard, as long as we hear the same thing we get to the same point… No program is the same as the rest or does anything in the same way. There are a number of ways to create a UX due to cultural and neural reasons, but no, what allias decided to do decades ago is a pain in the ass for novice users.

  • Is Zbrush a standard in UX? It is used by everyone and has the worst UX.

  • Is UV Layout a standard in UX? Everybody used it until two years ago, and it has without any doubt the worst UX in the world.

  • Is photoshop a standard in UX? I still know of people who took half a decade to know that Ctrl+Shift+Z existed because the genius who designed the program came up with the idea that Ctrl+Z would go back and come back.

Somebody wants to copy the errors of that programs? The errors of max? Of maya?

Blender just needs to use left click, reform some buttons and use WER. Everything else is going to matter, because it is just as rare as any other 3D program the first time you work with it.

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42

It’s not just Photoshop, AFAIK it’s true for every Adobination out there. I guess they Adobted the “industry standard” which was set by M# Painfff in order to appeal to the xen00phobos of the time.

43

Software is getting more and more expensive with crazy deals to keep the money flowing, this - along with Blender just being awesome - brings a lot of new people still lacking the understanding that Blender is popular because it is different in a well thought out way.
Remember that there’s always the option of forking the project. For instance Blinder could follow your idea of a standard… or just set a custom key mapping if you don’t like the defaults. But you should know that - to me - the defaults started making an increasing amount of sense after a few years of working with Blender, and now I’m whizzing through it. No other piece of software I know feels so appendical.

44

I’ve never heard of them, 3ds, maya houdini etc power most the industry games, movie, car/arch viz, fx etc… you can talk up blender all you want it’s past hasn’t been all that great in comparison.

brings a lot of new people still lacking the understanding that Blender is popular because it is different in a well thought out way.

don’t be silly, people don’t come to blender because they heard about how this piece of software does dumb stuff like use right click for selecting when every other piece of software most people have conceivably used does it with left click and same for deselecting etc pull your head out the sand man,

Because they come because either they’ve seen other artists demonstrate it is capable of outputting realistic renders, and/or…wait for it… its free thus more likely to be used where the economics just make more sense.

And I’m glad you think the defaults make sense after… wait for it… in your own words “years” …yeah good one.

45

I just repeated what you said. You called maya/max intuitive after many years of using it. I mean, really? You can’t tell objectively how intuitive or not something is when you’re already using it for years. I just didn’t put “intuitive” in the quotes. I was saying that industry standart not equal intuitive, people are using it becase it is the standard and they were taught this way. For blender users blender is “intiutive”, you get the point? You used the word “intuitive” wrong in the first place then.
Whatever, i don’t need to convince you to use blender. But bashing blender developers and saying what you’re saying is wrong. You should be ashamed of yourself.

46

Agree. And recently we can see enough people from the game industry trying blender and share pictures on twitter etc instead of whining about different controls. So it shouldn’t be a problem if you’re actually know how to model. Just sad how people say “blender devs don’t care about “X” because they don’t get their paycheck.” Btw it implies that he think they don’t get paid. And these people are adults… sigh

47

Fortunately, this isn’t the measure by which Blender is judged, or cares to be judged by.

That’s your problem.

In short, to make that absolutely clear. Unlike other, commercial software, blenders goal isn’t to try and inject itself into as many “industry” studios as possible.

Also, to look into blender, and not even read the about page information, and not even know about how the open movies affect it’s development proves you’re really out-of-touch with it’s design goals, instead trying to force upon it your own.

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48

If it took a few years to make a sense out of keymap, then that is all the proof needed to realize how bad the keymap is. Average keymap learning curve in any software is 2-4 weeks.

You also apparently don’t read my posts, as I’ve already posted above that I made my own keymap completely from scratch. So it’s not that Blinder could follow my idea of standard. It already is!

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49

Indeed, people are attracted by the work of people that accept Blender the way it is. Not by lengthy descriptions of its intended workflow.

Can you mention a skill that took you less time to master? I mean… how long did it take before you could properly wipe your ass? :cheese:
Btw, I’m not a daily Blender user - in part - because I also create other kinds of graphics, code and sound. Giving me comparative experience with many (mainly open source, but also proprietary in the past) tools. Blender is awesome; leave the suckiness behind.

50

Exactly. But many of us here are. We use Blender to make a living, so we can not afford to be unproductive. If you, yourself are aware that you have not mastered 3D graphics yet, then you should perhaps leave expertise of input mapping up to people who have. By that, I do not mean you should use the exact mapping they use, because it’s partially a matter of personal preference, but you should not dismiss their calls for more standard workflows they way you have up until now. Especially since many of us use more than one software in our pipeline, and input maps deviating so far from standard as the Blender one tend to mess up muscle memory pretty bad.

51

What is unproductive is this discussion and your attempts at avoiding to learn new things.
Now if you’ll excuse me, mister moneyhound, I’ve got a life to live. :triumph:

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I think it would be better if we could see the opposite points a little bit. Well it is true that it is not right to want to change all the controls of blender because such a person says so or does such software, but I also believe that many of the things that defends @LudvikKoutny are understood.

53

I can’t say who is better than whom… I can say, Blender, is a free and massive 3d tool who never asked anything to anyone, growing by itself and is supporters .

People who use it love it with it’s flaws. I have been using it for one year now. I can says it is pretty hard to make the switch when your are use to other software. And I would say this is a normal thing.

Look at someone learning zbrush UI for the first time. It is funny because tu ui is on of the worst in all 3d tools I know. Does it make it a lesser tool ?

Let it grow, don’t be a Fan boy don’t hate it. Help devs to make it better.

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54

Sometimes it takes effort to protect the fine work that has already been done by devs long gone from the storms of change. Satisfaction is less often voiced than discontent. Hence forum-democracy is bound to piss people off who were perfectly satisfied.

I joined these forums to protest the stupid notion of monochrome icons (which is also supported by the “industry standard” idiocy)… after more than 10 years as a perfectly satisfied Blender user who did not see a point in wasting time on walls of text, instead occasionally reporting a bug and making a donation.

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"I just repeated what you said. You called maya/max intuitive after many years of using it. I mean, really? "

No I didn’t, that’s you stringing together different things said and taking them out of context… I specifically made this point here…

“And fyi I trained in 3dsmax, and moved to maya and within a few hours I was comfortable with the very basics of modelling, viewport navigation and getting things done… can’t say the same about blender awkward defaults.”

Even Modo/3DCoat … all provide a default key map and navigation options that are more sane than blender, hell they even provide options for using navigation that is going to be widely prefered by others…
https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/563087i909B24102602AF68/image-size/large?v=1.0&px=999

The fact blender as you say has been around for yonks and sucks at doing this really just says alot about the people behind the project and it’s community.

"Blender is awesome; leave the suckiness behind.

…should be “Blender leave the suckiness behind, become awesome.”

“Fortunately, this isn’t the measure by which Blender is judged, or cares to be judged by.”

Sure right, and ugly gammas don’t want to be the alpha who gets all the attention from chicks. Its not like there isn’t room for improvement with blender that it could easily do better, but fanboys like you are its useless sub-conscience that whines and defends about it, ignore the outsider supposed ‘trolls’ who are saying what could be done to improve things.

“In short, to make that absolutely clear. Unlike other, commercial software, blenders goal isn’t to try and inject itself into as many “industry” studios as possible.”

I’m glad you can speak on it’s behalf of it accepting it’s place as alternative with weird defaults not many studios and those working in them would care to have to use, when the place can afford to buy software that just does things better with more professional design choices behind it including key mapping.

“Agree. And recently we can see enough people from the game industry trying blender and share pictures on twitter etc instead of whining about different controls.”

It’s funny you mentioned this, I know someone who was making game models/animations with blender, they recently got the student license for maya, and now they are using that instead… go figure… if maya was open source, blender well I wouldn’t even be here wasting my time, talking about this need for blender to start fixing some of its shit, and I doubt many others in the community that write scripts and tools and generally contribute to the features it has gotten over the years would be here either.

I commend rawavalance for his efforts at delving into blender more than the fanboys and fixing the broken default keymap for blender and his work on making the maya style navigation actually workable in blender (atleast until someone of the dev side breaks shit again) these things should have been done ages ago and built in and maintained with releases.

“Btw, I’m not a daily Blender user”

As if some of us I couldn’t have already guessed you weren’t a professional but a blender fanboy. You also just said 10hrs ago “Now if you’ll excuse me, mister moneyhound, I’ve got a life to live.” and you’re back again trolling about protecting the fine work :smiley: lol yeah dumping functions on hotkeys that start with the same letter, is real damn professional work not.

“Walls of text are an inefficient way of getting a point across.”

yes details are wasted on people who completely suck at comprehending anything.

“I can says it is pretty hard to make the switch when your are use to other software. And I would say this is a normal thing”

…yeah a switch to blender… where as you can easily switch from just about every other 3d modelling app 3ds-maya-3dcoat-houdini-modo-mudbox-unity-u3d in my experience … every one of them with ease. Of course the details of why that is clearly lost on fanboys of blender most of which seem to be hobby-itsis by the looks of it.

56

Yes, yes it does. Zbrush with good UI would be better than Zbrush with bad UI. Zbrush has such a solid tech, such a good tools and such a lack of competition that artists use it despite the weird UI. That doesn’t mean if Zbrush had a better UI, it would not be a better software overall.

57

Seriously, why don’t you fork off? This can be quite beneficial to both resulting branches. The “industry standard” people could show what they mean when they type words while the original branch could keep its veteran user base satisfied. Each could inspire the other instead of engaging in an infinite tug-o-war.

Welcome to the world of open source.

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I don’t buck improvements. I even pointed out that an industry standard keymap option is a useful improvement to have, though I wish when defaults were changed from the fast workflow to the ‘user friendly’ one, the fast workflow got a preset that was clearly labelled, so it’s easy for us and anyone aspiring to push their limits can know where to go.

Anyway, I haven’t been “whining”, I’ve just been telling you, your entire idea of what blender is, and it’s goals is skewed by commercial software. Blender isn’t a “gamma” to anything, it’s not “competing”. It gets to focus on innovation and workflow optimisation, because it doesn’t have to be concerned with the financial consequences of not strictly adhering to norms.

Read the About and History.

Also, seriously, you need to focus less on the price tag. It seems the only reason you even care about blender is that it has no cost, that’s incredibly shallow.

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60

If you’re going to complain about the development direction, and border on abuse of the developers for that direction, you ought to know the design goals behind the project you’re berating.

Many people learn blender because it’s what they have access to, that’s true.
But the people you seem to deem important, the people doing work, they have money for licenses. Working blender artists stay typically for other reasons.
Blender isn’t here to be some free version of some other program, just so you don’t have to pay for that program anymore.

61

they’ve spent months/years working with it because it’s free and eventually got better, added scripts, customized hotkeys to be less stupid and finally found a workflow that works for them… why pay to use something else when they’ve put in the time to finally make blendar into a useable tool and learn all the pitfalls of the program… still slap a price a tag on blender equivalent to the others and watch users drop out especially newer ones. I’m not sure what is hard to see in that, are you saying something completely opposite would happen? :laughing: