Established ≠ intuitive.
Many books and development articles ui and ux point out that a procedure to the keyboard or mouse is not intuitive, otherwise everyone would know how to do it ( how to climb the stairs ).
Please read page 150: https://books.google.it/books?id=D39vjmLfO3kC&pg=PA33&hl=it&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q=intuitive&f=false
Thank you,
Rickyx
Hum wow I haven’t spent much time reading but looks like a troll. Can’t say blender is perfect nothing is ever perfect. You have to change your mid. What is the industry standard really?! Please just use the industry standard and let people do they’re things.
It is well built and efficient, it is always improving and free. We’re passionate . Stop Ranting.
If current Blender workflow would already by nigh-perfect, then:
Because it will help new users to feel more comfortable if they used different software before and potentially increase of user base? It is obvious that if you used completely different keymaps for a long time and different software it will be hard to fight against your muscle memory for some time. These questions doesn’t make any sense. And industry keymap doesn’t exist, every software have different menus and hotkeys. Mostly only basic interactions like gizmos are the same. And if your “industry compatible keymap” so perfect why does every software have some preference options and give you ability to remap keys? That is exacly what you asked, if it is perfect why change? Why give users options to change something that is perfect?
Your 3rd question must be a joke, blender had left click select since forever (it just wasn’t default). I used blender before 2.8 and i never used right click select.
“public popularity” means people are talking about it. The more people talking about something, the more popular it’s becomes and in today word it’s called “going viral”. Blender is close to release it’s biggest update since many years, eevee brings a lot of attention. Blender has been improved drastically for the past few years. And saying it’s getting popularity because of the default left click select is a joke.
The point was that Blender’s right click select keymap was not different for the sake of being better, it was different just for the sake of being different. There was absolutely nothing about right click centric workflow that would make Blender overall more efficient software than any other. Quite a contrary in many cases (remember the whole A-B hotkey cycle mess you had to do prior to every selection?) it made trivial tasks overcomplicated.
Yes, Blender had left click select since forever, and it was hardly functional. The new efforts in 2.8 make it actually usable, and that, along with UI redesign is what attracted most people. Blender is no longer that “weird” software.
I am very well aware there is no “industry keymap”. That’s why it’s called industry compatible, not industry standard. But there are certain standards, in any software, in any operating system, and in any web browser. Such as that left mouse button selects things, LMB drag box selects, etc… Blender has been s******g all over these for over a decade, and that’s why its popularity never took off. 2.8 is barely significantly different from 2.79 in terms of core workflow. It’s just the UI and input interaction what’s been mostly altered, and it goes to show how important these are.
There’s been tons of work done on Blender in recent years, and people barely noticed. Now here we are just with better looking UI and more common sense input mapping, and suddenly the influx of new users is almost overwhelming. You can have the best, most beautiful, fastest car in the world but people won’t buy it it you put in a wooden seats without any padding and a banana instead of steering wheel.
So how exactly can there be this notion of an “industry standard” which - apparently - is not defined by the way Blender works and selectively ignores things like Adobe’s crazy undo/redo shortkeys?
Believing in the existence of a standard amounts to delusion. Think for yourself and familiarize yourself with your new environment before calling for the removal of every wall you run into.
I guess you don’t wield the 3D cursor like I do. Instead it’s more likely to feel like extra weight at your waist. The Blender standard has a somewhat steeper learning curve (a generally known fact), but please trust me when I say there is sound reasoning behind it which can only be revealed through experience.
I just told you i never used right click select. I changed it as soon as i launched blender the first time. And everything worked fine for me. If keymap configuration is holding you from using software, perhaps you don’t really need it, think about it.
Didn’t quite get your comparison with a car. But sounds funny when someone talk about unintuitive and bad blender keymap while using “industry proven, very intuitive” hold alt 24/7 keymap + 3 different buttons for pan, rotate, zoom. I think this could be the reason why you unable to press hotkeys, poor alt. Some people even use sticky keys insted of remapping them, sad.
…a classic rookie mistake.
Get yourself a proper pointing device.
You apparently haven’t read my post 
I acknowledged there is no industry standard for keyboard and mouse mapping of general 3D software, but there are standards of keyboard and mouse interaction with software in general. The Adobe example is so wrong is not even funny, as Photoshop Undo/Redo hotkeys are really only used in Adobe Products, not anywhere else. The Ctrl+Z undo and Ctrl+Y redo is a standard though.
Your second paragraph is so childish it doesn’t even make sense to respond to it. But anyway, I find it hilarious how much correlation there is between people who defend Blenders legacy workflow and people who consistently output low quality work
Regarding the last statement, there is absolutely nothing about Blender’s 3D cursor that favors right click centric workflow.
I have spent several weeks going through every key binding of every Blender editor to familiarize myself with the purpose of a feature activates. Then several more weeks of completely overhauling entire Blender’s keymap to make more sense, and be more ergonomic:
So I think it’s pretty obvious I am a hotkey user.
Yes page 150… … if I was making a piece of software I wouldn’t go out of my way to make it the most backwards pile of rubbish… ooh every other piece of software users left click to select… herpa derp lets be clever and use the right button instead lolderp… and just basically doing everything opposite to the norm, blender has historically come from a background of being just out of touch… I mean right down to how it doesn’t even bother saving the window frame size/position which is pretty much common practice in all software you’d launch on windows and even other systems… blender no just launch full screen everytime… fck providing easy gui options on it… why conform to what every other freaking application would do right… these examples could just pile up, I mean they have all in the tracker left unfxed.
So yeah intuitive == familiar… sure I’ll go with that definition because what is familiar in usage is often popular and also often well established… this is industry standard by definition… you can call me a troll all you want for saying it, but the fact is blender by default, in so much of what it does, is not in line with what so much of the software industry has done… it’s quirky, yes it’s become more powerful and can compete with the more expensive licensed software but it still has a learning curve and defaulty setup that is just grating and frankly bad, in many areas that I’m surprised it is still taking so much time to get right and put in the options for people who aren’t down with unlearning established ways of doing things.
And no it’s never going to be perfect, maya 3dsmax, neither of them ever reached perfection for me either (but that wasn’t in the core control mapping or workflow, purely just feature/options) but given how far back both those applications go back, just as far as blender they’ve certainly made an impact in how they’ve worked and gained popularity in the industry for getting the job done. On top of being software you have to pay for… and how well many users have gotten into the workflow, for me moving between 3dsmax xsi and maya was pretty simple they all provided ‘sane’ control mappings for doing things with a workflow that wasn’t just anti-user frankly… Y’know software is good when people would rather pirate a licensed copy than use the free version of something else… in the past anyway, its certainly changed overtime and probably more so since the industry move to subscriptions and more people coming over to blender in this case and increasing the amount of quality third party scripts etc!.
So I’m just saying that hings are not improving in this area fast enough (I keep pointing out these 2 https://developer.blender.org/T54963
and more importantly… all the things listed here https://developer.blender.org/T57918 … sure there are probably loads of other wishlist items for blender to have… but these are basics that would really make blender so much better to use and learn for so many new users and existing user coming and going from other packages without such jarring bad practices that blender by default uses), it’s not like I’m asking for gpu accelerated rendering… because ironically blender actually freaking has that, while Autowreks packages are still trying screw users out on cpu rendering licenses… but at least there packages all have solid core bases and have so for 20years… unlike Blender where just using the undo key could result in a crash, and you learn more about what not to try do in this program to avoid not needing to use undo, and waste time trying to find out how to do something because of its un-intuitive design, that for me I just forget the moment I close the program as its just bad, come back to trying blender again a year later and its like well surely there is someone who’s tried to make a control mapping scheme that matches the other mainstream packages… then wonder why its not fking built in, then find it can’t really replicate the mainstream packages because of so many core areas needing to be fixed for it, as most the issues are pointed out in the links above.
And Rawalanche maya keymap is just great for blender, I’ve always prefered the viewport navigation maya set, even unity developers copied it over a decade ago because they saw how so many in the industry preferred it (they did a talk on unity history in a unite talk show few years back ) shame core blender developers are such troglodytes to there quirky backward implementations of existing established norms. I can go to 3dsmax and use that but I’ll always prefer maya mapping, often wonder if blender die hard users ever used other industry packages, or just came to this first as was free and don’t speak from experience at all.
When people tell “industry standards” when they want to tell maya/autodesk config
Maya -Alias
3dsmax -Discreet
Softimage XSI -Softimage
Those programs all did shit right before blender even existed. Where they thought they’d be like we going to do different for the sake of doing it different but not better.
bit like gimp never just implementing things photoshop did in workflow shortcuts and good interface design ux… or is photoshop a leading piece of software in its area also not an industry standard to you?
You clearly can’t differentiate between the industry standard and intuitive. Obviously when you’re using any software for a long time it will become intuitive to you. And when everyone is using the same software it become the industry standart. These things are not equal and not the same. Zbrush is the industry standart for sculpting and a lot of people are bashing it for not “standard” controls. Every software have it’s own history, roots, mind set and user base and for them it’s intuitive. So stop acting like a child.
And btw blender is older than maya.
Wouldn’t it be easier to just use default blender for some time and then tweak what you don’t like? It would be faster. “ergonomic” is good but everyone has different preferences and what works for you could be opposite for someone else. I personally found default blender keymap is really easy to remember, most of the hotkeys = first letter in the tool name. After sometime i just changed a few hotkeys so they will be closer to my left hand and that’s it. Imho if they would just bind everything to random keys it would be way harder to remember everyhing.
No, it wouldn’t, because default Blender’s keymap is terribly messy and inefficient. My keymap was made to be much more productive, and it is. It is existing, concrete example that Blender’s keymap can be closer to established standards of software input interaction, and at the same time be much more productive than Blender’s default keymap.
"You clearly can’t differentiate between the industry standard and intuitive. "…and then you give me a explanation that by using a piece of software for a long time it will become intuitive… Eerrr it’s you who can’t differentiate the difference between intuitive (ie something that is easy to use and understand right from the get go!) and mastering (something that takes countless hours/days/months/years and in blenders case fiddling with broken defaults, finding third party scripts and endless customizing to finally get a usable tool) because unlike software that needs to pay salaries there is little effort from those who have mastered blender to actually fix all the broken stuff…which is why so many of those issues go unfixed.
And fyi I trained in 3dsmax, and moved to maya and within a few hours I was comfortable with the very basics of modelling, viewport navigation and getting things done… can’t say the same about blender awkward defaults.
And mapping controls to the first name of a key is just dumb by design… you even prove the point by saying you change the some of the hotkeys to be closer to your lefthand… something alot of professions would do including myself … so why in hell are the defaults mapped in a way that even professionals of the tool would end up remapping… let that sink in, the defaults suck and you know it.
It is truly saddening that most people see blender’s main draws as “it’s free” and “it’s open source”, rather than “it has a fluid, fast workflow”, simply because they refuse to. Those who bother to learn it, and especially those who use it professionally, appreciate the workflow infinitely more than the price or open source nature.
The people causing 2 and 3 don’t care about the best workflow. They care about whatever is the most convenient for them. These people don’t see the benefits through the learning time.
It is better.
Blender wasn’t developed “to be different”, it was developed for artists, with direct feedback, to have the best workflow possible.
This direct feedback from artists using the program continues to this day. The artists with the most feedback power are making open movies with blender as it develops for this reason.
The only valid point in requesting “familiar” keymaps and controls is for using blender in a pipeline with other software, where the individuals themselves have to switch between the parts of the pipeline, and thus software - but this merely calls for requests for a “familiar” keymap, rather than the chip on their shoulder everyone from the, ahem, “industry”, seems to have, with their bold demands that blender be more “familiar” and is “absurd” for not doing so.
Oh look, there’s that chip on the shoulder. See aforementioned history link.
Stupidly low priority. Also given the multi platform nature I can imagine it’s not as easy as it sounds.
You’re getting an industry standard keymap. You even got LCS default.
You should be grateful, not pissy or entitled - you could have easily gotten nothing.
Yes, “gotten into” that workflow that’s taught almost exclusively in universities, because the universities have agreements to do that. And the software that works like other software, so when studios explore software options, they see one that costs money to learn, versus one that costs money to buy, and never really explore far enough to quantify workflow time savings. Then there’s the issue of support, a very large reason companies wouldn’t use blender, it has noone to call, blame, right there in the pinch, when something doesn’t work, can’t be done, they need some help etc. People surely “got into” that workflow by choice.
This all compounds then when that software, which relies on commercial income, decides to try and improve something - changing the key bindings or any aspect of the workflow is very expensive because it risks a drop in popularity, mad, lazy users will switch to other software where they don’t have to learn something - so the workflow and controls remain stagnant for the most part, commercial software can’t risk that stable money for an improvement in workflow - because, as we see here, most people will be blind to the improvement, and merely yell about things not being “familiar” anymore.
Those are such great foundations to build a workflow on, aren’t they. Those are so pro-user.
Blender is actually pro-user. Pro Blender user. Ultimately, pro professional artist. Read the mission statement, because I feel the need to bring that up again, specifically the parts on “Easy to learn vs easy to use”, and “Blender for Blender users”. The static slow-to-adopt-change industry isn’t a primary priority.
I understand that not knowing each other personally causes misunderstandings: I’ve been using Blender since 2002, I’ve been dealing with interfaces since 2004, I’ve been teaching blender since 2009 at university and I’m trying to keep up to date.
First, I’ve never given anybody a troll.
Second, if in a post, just because I post a page called “Intuitive and Natural Interfaces” when it comes to intuitive interfaces, I’m titled troll (wow I’m ranting!) then I don’t know how to address myself in this forum: I don’t even try to impose my opinion but to expand the reasoning!
Jef Raskin helped to conceive the interface of the mac and many concepts that are currently used in our smartphones (so not obsolete concepts: we use them every day). I don’t think it’s a useless reading. I spend a lot of hours reading about user interfaces and I think that, for once, posting a reference now established when designing interfaces is a good idea If scientific references are criticized, as often happens in this period, well, patience, I’m a troll.
So please @FrancoisGosselin can you read that page? It is not trolling but a really good reading. Thank you.
Also, this is my opinion, I don’t understand why it is a priority to steal users from Maya: who thinks that the Maya interface is better, uses Maya. You want the Photoshop interface, please use Photoshop.
Blender has become so used because it is different and because it was not a problem to follow its path. How long does it take to learn what I do with “G”? Why every software is made in its own way but Blender must be like 3dMayashop.
As for the students (this is not my opinion but a real thing), I taught Blender to about 2 thousand people (some of them are now in the “industry”), me and my colleagues and I didn’t find no difference in the blender learning curve compared to other 3d software ( and after the first lesson no one has problems with the right click select).
Thank you,
Rickyx
Walls of text are an inefficient way of getting a point across.
Ever used Blender with a stylus/pen?
…or heard of carpal tunnel syndrome?