I am going to explain why user feedback is absolutely useless. With an example. The case of how modelers have lost 3-6 hours of work per week due to the loss of the 1-0 keys to hide or show layers/collections and the BF doesn’t seem to care… Evolution of the problem in chronological order
In blender 2.79 the possibility of changing these hotkeys by changing mode is raised. (Important: This idea DOES NOT come from the community, nor is it requested by it)
The idea is criticized because swapping layers is a great feature used daily hundreds of times (almost as much as the tab key).
It is answered that users should not worry, that the option will be there.
In the codequest this option is eliminated and the option to swap modes is added (Lying to users in the codequest was free).
Criticism is back, after weeks/months asking for it, it is accepted to return to the old implementation.
As there are no layers, something new is implemented with collections, but it is implemented incorrectly, it loses the main features and is literally unusable, which confuses the user easily
Feedback is given that it works badly and is unusable. That user will not use this.
It is replied that it is an initial implementation, that it will be improved.
It is not fixed for blender2.8, it is said that it will have to wait until later. That it will be completed for the next version. Ok
Years go by where from time to time we remember the problem, propose new ways to solve with outliner colors… Months go by and still no answer
Several users criticize that the problem is not solved after such a long time.
The solution is proposed to the developers in different channels in case there are communication problems. The developers answer us that it is not the moment, that they will be able to pay attention to us in the development of blender 3.0 to solve the problem.
The first steps of the planing for blender3.0 arrives and finally they will remove (not hide, not optional, remove) the swap mode of collections under the excuse that it confuses the user.
We keep asking to fix what is there.
Silence as an answer
After this, seriously, what is the feedback for? We are still in the same crappy decision making where feedback is ignored for years, literally. And even when simple solutions to the problem are proposed, feedback is ignored. And it is no longer something optional in the keymap, as with other options, it is literally removing everything from the system. So what is the right way to give feedback? There are a dozen of users giving feedback about this in different places, by chat directly to the developers, by PM, the developers website, the forum,… Is it just me giving feedback or are we all doing it wrong?
It seems that it is only useful when it confirms what the developers want. Because it seems unimportant that with the new solution the user loses literally 30-60 minutes daily because he can no longer hide collections using a button (since blender2.8 the outliner eats 10% of the daily workflow) because they do not want to implement a function that does not even have 30 lines of code? really?
Say that the debate is not about changing hotkeys, I don’t care if devs change the default hotkeys to change the editing mode, at this point I don’t mind that this is the default and that new users can’t enjoy the modeling speed of blender 2.79, they need one more hour of work in exchange for being able to switch quickly to vertex paint. But fix the damn feature so that those of us who work with this on a daily basis don’t have to work six extra hours a week because someone insists on this feature.
Hi Alberto,
Why are you losing 3-6 hours/week because of this?
For anyone willing to get back to the pre-2.8 workflow all they need to do is to keep all the collections in the top level mimicking the 2.79 workflow (make sure you have only 20).
In object mode the 1-10 (and alt 1-10) shortcuts already work. In Edit mode all you need is to replace the “Mesh Select Mode” with the “Hide Collection” shortcut:
Because the implementation and does not take into account how the user works. It doesn’t mimic the 2.79 behaviour. Which makes it impossible to use and that’s why those hotkeys are going to be replaced because of the amount of problems they create and nobody wants to use them. That’s why we are forced to use the outliner, because it is the only way to work correctly.
And when using the outliner what happens? it slows down the whole workflow. In blender 2.79 you could work without looking at the model, I mean not having to look at the outliner, the properties editor,… you could work only with the 3D viewer maximized. Now you have to spend easily 15-30 min a day looking at it to activate or deactivate collections. Losing focus on what you are doing slows you down which adds up to another 15-30min of wasted time.
In short, to put it in perspective, it is like asking the user to go to an outliner menu every time he wants to do an extrude or a grab. You waste a lot of time on it.
What are the problems of the current implementation?
It doesn’t allow the user to decide what each hotkey hides, the user can’t create his mental map of the scene where he works. To be able to use it, you have to arrange the scene. And obviously no one is going to subordinate how the collections are organized to some hotkeys.
It does not disable collections, it hides them. Which literally makes these hotkeys useless because you can hide all your collections, be modeling, unhide an object and you unhide all the collections.
It leads to easy mistakes for new users.
What is the solution? Very simple
Do not hide the collections, deactivate them. So we do not see conflicts with hide or show.
That each hotkey corresponds to a color of the collections.
(use zero for show all)
This end with newbies problem, because if you hit 1 hotkey you will see all yout collections, not hide it. So the possibilitie of bad usage is minor.
An this allow user to configure the scene the way that they want to work. For example green(1) for low poly and red(2) for high poly and brown (9) for garbage and user will use same hotkeys in all the different works.
But this same scene with actual implementation will be
1 and 3 low poly
2 and 4 high poly
5 garbage
6 refs
but if the scene have only 3 collections the hotkeys will change and garbage will be 3, refs 4,…
Other solution? Instead of use colors allow that collection have a number associated.
@Alberto
is there any other 3d software that have 1-9 hotkeys to hide collection/folders ?
I have no problem with this at all, furthermore, I had to remap 1 2 3 4 to verts/edges/faces/object for quick switching (also remapped G R E to W E R, but it’s an other story…), to be consistent with other major 3d software which I use.
So, as I can see, the problem only in how hiding the collections works. I agree that it should be disabled instead of hiding but only after this T87111 bug would be fixed.
No, in the same way that the rest of the software does not have the 3D cursor or the blende modal hotkeys.
The problem is not only that collections are disabled or not, it is that they are mapped by default forcing you to stop using the main features of these.
Since all objects within a collection are currently hidden or unhidden, I don’t see what is preventing this limitation on deactivating collections.
I think Alberto meant that anything can be corrupted at any moment without providing a solution or a substitution that was proven to work better in practical use.
Unfortunately the ties with the 2.79 series must be cut at some point. The sooner, the better.
Personally, for me transitioning to the 2.8 series was a real pain of 4-5 months. But as of now, I can think of the 2.7 version as “cute” however the real deal now is the 2.8, which is technically more advanced and more tuned to modern workflows.
I agree with you about that we shouldnt compare blender with other softwares or omit features just because other softwares never had. Its not a good argument to say ‘‘other softwares never had it so blender doesnt need it too’’ Every software is unique, and no need to remove some good usable workflows or features just to be closer to other softwares.
Well, okay, but we are here not for layers, right?
The issue is feedback usability, and it is actually way deeper.
I think I can get an example from this tread.
In short.
I am a workflow designer in architectural company.
My task is to make sure that software we use is able to deal with work our company perform.
To depict this workflow issue we was following forums, providing feedback, made a tread, provided pictures with explanations, made conversations, found a developer, made working realization, made a video in foreign language to explain how Blender’s system is supposed to be used in practice with examples and even made an international project of a unique complexity to prove that concept works perfectly at the industry level.
But Dalai still recommends shortcut reassignment, which doesn’t even solve the underlying problem.
This showed us that the total time and effort involved was not enough to map the problem and form a working solution.
As a result, for example, anything can be corrupted at any moment without providing a solution or a substitution that was proven to work better in practical use.
In my opinion Dalai is an excellent developer who maintains a massive and complex opensource project (Curfew was a pure magic!).
But…
From our side we did our best - literally everything possible to us to define and explain an issue.
The amount of provided feedback was just exhausting.
We are literally run out of ideas how it is possible to explain that we don’t need “mimicking 2.79”.
We need solutions to practical problems, which was exclusively solved in Blender at the industry level.
I guess in a sense it’s why so many branches of blender exist, be it private, paid or open to all, like BoneStudio’s branch, e-cycles, k-cycles, SSGI branch etc.
They provide a solution to a problem or fix something because its easier to make a branch version and not depend on the Blender core devs to wait to implement fixes (i guess this is where “ignored” feedback falls into) , or wait 100 years for a revision code to be reviewed, or other changes because of time constrains and other priority tasks.
For me, the snapping system is so infuriating that if i had not used CAD like tools for snapping i would have probably “set my city on fire like 15 times”
In 2.79 viewport was so slow for me, even with relatively low amount of stuff, that splitting the scene into layers and managing visibility tightly was the only viable option for me to keep the viewport alive. In 2.80+ I rarely need to toggle visibility so often, and I find switching to local view more frequently used in my case.
Yes, collection hiding hotkeys are done in a quite inconvenient way, and I avoid using them totally, so I removed them from my keymap setup.
In my opinion, I’d rather have them removed totally and it replaced with something more useful.
Aw, this kind of a system is needed for complex modeling types and cannot be replaced)
We spent a lot of time to define what can possibly be more useful, but, unlike other approaches it provides a solution to a too widespread modeling problem.
That’s why we switched our company from 3dsmax/Maya and industry standard approach (with its 123 for mesh subentities, instant edit mode, W.E.R. instead of G.E.A.R.S. and infinite layers) to Blender approach - to have the ability to perform top complexity modeling tasks, impossible in other applications.
Of course, we are still keeping using 3dsmax, but mostly for format compatibility and especially when we reach Blender’s performance limit for massive scenes.
Hard to say.
I was teaching this approach to people for several years back in 2006 when I was a 3dsmax trainer.
So it is more like a very vintage past with all the same very well known issues and limitations.
For me 2.79 was faster in terms of changing panels or splitting windows as well as changing workspaces in terms of interface smoothness. now if ı use 2.79 viewport its faster and feels more agile. Chaning panels as well as changing workspace was also more fast in 2.79. Now changing workspaces is slower on me after 2.8 , it doesnt change as soon as I click name of new workspace. 2.79 was sooo fast about it . Now i kinda hate to use workspaces because it always makes me wait until new work space show up and feels like it will crash or freeze . Same for splitting windows, it was super fast in 2.79 when u slide it to sides , now it behaves laggier little bit. (When I Open a new file and try to create more 3d viewport windows by splitting main default one and its easy to notice that is slower) As new features added, some things became slower and hard to carry all the features.
Due to some aspects as I mentioned in my other comment about interface performance, So i dont fully agree with the old one was cute but not as good as after 2.8. New one is just more polished and modern look which makes most people think its more pro because it fits the new trend of modern software look. However, the addons on the properties panel is a mess. 2.79 was more organized. Creation was done from left side by T panel , while changing post properties was done on right properties panel. Now creation and property changing addons or features are all done from same panel just to have cool looking Tools area on the left like other softwares.
Also, i think breaking ties with past just to become mainstream or same with industry or and not being original or just to make change for change is not always right for me. Its more important to the one followed than following others.
Other softwares hardly remove their old obselete features, they still keep them even though they are sooooo unnecessary because they think some people might still use it. They put those features as legacy or obselete to not break compability with old files or old projects. I think new features or necessary modern features that make blender real deal could be added without harming the old good features or workflows
I just checked viewport performance and yep, blender 2.8+ is way faster.
First test: 16k icospheres, 1.2k faces each. 2.8 was way faster and viewport performance was bearable.
Second test: a plane and hair particles with cubes. 2.8 survived 100k and even 200k particles, while 2.79 choked with around 1 fps on 100k particles. Enabling material preview increased the gap.
These quick tests, however, provide extreme situations, which you are unlikely to hit quickly.
But, I remembered things correctly - I noticed viewport performance boost, when I worked with specific scenes. In places where I used to control visibility to keep my viewport in 2.79 alive, suddenly I had and opportunity to navigate the scene, rendered as whole.
But one thing surprised me: both blender versions, old and new one become equally painfully slow at manipulating stuff, when they have a lot of datablocks, or if they create a lot of datablocks.
That was not what I talked about, of course particles had a improvement as they talked on blendertoday during 2.8 times, also the new eevee engine making better material and texture previews on viewport are way more better along with subdivision modifier improvements that was improved.
I was talking about the interface splitting, windows, workspace transitions and other things. Not regarding the new material or textured mode or number of faces or objects. So I just pointed out the areas that got slower. So 2.79 was faster in those aspects that I mentioned other than the viewport performance u mentioned
