Edit mesh face dots (poll)

[Alberto]

That weird distinction you guys love here, almost doesn’t exist in other apps.

Nor does any other application have modals tools, and look, we love them.

One of the best things about blender, and that attracted more users of other apps in the past, was its viewer, clean and clear, compared to the rest of applications. Yes, they are the most used, but they have visors that are a pain in the ass to use.

I have never seen a single complaint about facedots in ten years.

It is very easy to understand, blender users use blender not because it is free (because we can pirate the program we want), we use it because it is BETTER than other programs, your viewer is better than most programs, your tools are better, your modeling workflow is better.

Yes, many people come from other applications and basically want to have a Maya, but free, a max, but free, … but the good thing about blender is not that it is free, is that it is different, that it is blender.

[kaio]

So, by not personally understanding the utility behind something, it must be bad for all users - is what you are saying.

Then I’m glad the developers are in charge and not you

[Alberto]

What we should do, is keep face dots off by default

With the mess there has been with the wireframe in blender2.8, I still do not understand the stubbornness to try to save the changes …

• Eliminate the facedots, did not work
• Remove wireframe mode, it didn’t work
• Xray instead of wireframe, didn’t work.
• Change wireframe drawing, didn’t work.
• Change the drawing of the solid mode of selection, it didn’t work

For God’s sake, copy the behaviour of the old wireframe to edit and stop wasting more time with this.

I would like to know the time of development of the codequest that would have been saved if instead of redesigning and implementing all this had become a port of blender2.79 viewer with improvements (lights, matcaps, eevee, …), which was what everyone asked from the first moment.

[nokipaike]

It is very easy to understand, blender users use blender not because it is free (because we can pirate the program we want), we use it because it is BETTER than other programs, your viewer is better than most programs, your tools are better, your modeling workflow is better.

Totally agree… obviously…
this is the truth.
In some things, especially in the modeling and workflow philosophy, blender has always been superior to all. Especially focused on fast acting.

[ThinkingPolygons]

@Alberto

Nor does any other application have modals tools, and look, we love them.

That’s exactly my point.

Only true hardcore-day-one Blender users care about it. New users and people coming from other apps they don’t give a crap about this, because those issues are non-existent elsewhere. Claiming that new users will complain about it is BS.

Why on earth would I want a blatant hardcoded indication of the component I’m in? I know perfectly well which mode I’m currently in, I KNOW THAT, because I deliberately entered into this mode. People know what they are doing. We are not 6 years old kids, this level of “babysitting” happening here is totally unnecessary.

I remember when “face dots” were removed from c4d back in the day, and you know what, it was a memorable day.
Those features should be totally optional, so people could use it when they see fit. Babysitting is not the way to go.

[ThinkingPolygons]

@kaio

So, by not personally understanding the utility behind something, it must be bad for all users - is what you are saying.

What are you talking about?

Damn.

[nokipaike]

Only true hardcore-day-one Blender users care about it. New users and people coming from other apps they don’t give a crap about this, because those issues are non-existent elsewhere. Claiming that new users will complain about it is BS.

are you so sure?
I like watching a lot of blender videos … and everyone uses modal modeling …

[NahuelBelich]

The difference between edge and face select could also be that in face select, edges are dimmed. As such, the element type that corresponds to the selection mode would be the most prominent.

If thats the case if that its not a technical issue that need to be recoded or do a double drawcall like with the preselection preview its fine, i like it too as long as the three selection elements are easy differentiated with nothing selected, the example that rawavalanch uploaded place us in the position a few months ago where was no difference between edge or face in edit mode.

As for face dots in general, they are a useful mesh debugging tool, just like normal display or face orientation, which you can enable when needed

What we should do, is keep face dots off by default, but obviously keep them as an overlay option

Totally agree, once the face dots came back my main issue was that they need to be activated by object, once that behavior change an i was in control with one click it was a round deal for me.

But they do create a lot of clutter, which is especially problematic with dense meshes, where the face dots can actually make topology unreadable

This is debatable, however as long as the users have the chance to change or modify the look or what it is or not or what can cause, its kinda loosing time in discussing something that its a circumstantial and personal preference. I know more buttons in the preferences but it may save lot of go back and forward.

[zebus3d]

The same thing happens with operating systems, what do you want to empower, ignorant users in relation to how work the operative system? Or on the contrary, do you want to promote users with knowledge how the system works? The clear example would be Windows and Mac promoting ignorant users in system administration and on the other hand would be Linux promoting intelligent users who are interested in learning how operating systems work. The first time you see the facedots you don’t know what they are, out of pure ignorance, but as soon as you get used to them and really learn how useful they are, you are thankful that they are always visible there, and if they had not been there by default, nor had you known them, Maya has them and nobody knows it because it is in an option that is quite hidden and is not found if you don’t look for it.

I hope no user is offended, it is not my intention, I hope the example is understood.

[ThinkingPolygons]

The first time you see the facedots you don’t know what they are, out of pure ignorance, but as soon as you get used to them and really learn how useful they are

then you turn them off to kill the unnecessary visual clutter, and start using it only when needed.

Again, we need the options to turn them on and off as needed, no reason to have them hardcoded enabled by default. When things are optional there’s no room for complaints, and that’s what we need.

[zebus3d]

For me it is essential to know at a glance whether or not I am in face mode, and you can also debug your geometry at any time, if that does not seem important to you…

[billrey]

There are two issues here:

1. Making it clear which selection mode you are using
2. Face dots specifically

Solving issue #1 does not necessarily mean using face dots.

Just to refresh, these are some of the main reasons face dots are disabled by default:

With dense meshes, face dots makes meshes unreadable:

With face dots.

Without face dots.

Then there are all the cases in which they fail:

So yes, as an overlay option they are fine, but not as a default. Other apps don’t need all these dots cluttering up your display either.

We also provide other visual overlays, such as normals display, which don’t make sense to enable by default:

Users can enable these when needed, but otherwise they can stay out of the way.

We can make it clear which selection mode you are in, without using face dots and without making edges extra thick en edge selection mode, just by changing the visual prominence of the elements instead.

[zebus3d]

Objects with dense meshes (of sculpt for example), are not usually put in wireframe mode to interpret their geometry, so it doesn’t matter if they have facedots or not.

[billrey]

The same applies to models with cleaner topology:

The face dots makes the edge flow hard or impossible to read on common cases, and adds lots of visual noise and clutter, just like visible normals would.

[zebus3d]

When you analyze dense geometry, you usually analyze a particular area of the model at a rather close distance. Not to walk away and think oh how bad it looks from afar.

[billrey]

These examples are not very far away. In each example, the ones without the face dots are clearer, and easier to read. With the face dots, you must zoom in much further to get a readable display of your mesh, compared to without.

[zebus3d]

The only reason why I want to see the complete model at a distance that you see the complete model and clean and nice is to make screenshots, at that time is a good time to manually deactivate the facedots.

[zebus3d]

Aesthetic decisions should not interfere with work efficiency.

[Alberto]

But is this a survey to listen to users or to ignore them and do what the UI team says? that is, the usual.

Because to do that, don’t even ask us. Do what you have done throughout the code quest, ignore our opinions, and so happy. But don’t put the candy in our mouths that a survey is done to find out what users think and then use the same arguments of people who don’t even know how to model to do whatever you want.