Keyboard shortcut consistency (w) and independence on select style - left or right (forwarded from developer ticket)

The original ticket here https://developer.blender.org/T59045 which was closed without meaningful discussion.

Gist

When select with Right mouse button is used
Pressing w brings out modal (in 2.8 called Mesh Context Menu, in previous versions it was called Specials).

When select with Left mouse button is used
Pressing w cycles through select modes (Select, Select Box, Select Circle, Select Lasso).

Thus shortcut w behaves differently whether user chooses to select with right or left.
Expected that whatever mouse selection is preferred, keyboard shortcuts (eventually - actions, that can be executed just by keyboard w/o mouse involvement) work identically.
In this case it would mean that w opens up modal also in Left mouse mode.

My arguments

  • Click preference should not affect keyboard actions that in no way are related to some click action (that is, w is not click modifier, not related, so should not be affected by).
  • Consistency across Blender users. A newbie asks in forum or college on how to subdivide mesh in Edit mode. w+s currently would not be the correct answer, it is inconsistent.
  • Two keystrokes instead of mouse click and keystroke to start and finish action. Not loosing Blender ideas about executing actions fast without mouse involvement.
  • Bad practice to introduce/carry on in 2.8+

Rally not a “bug”?

4 Likes

+1 yeah, this brings inconsistency and makes harder for the newbies to learn.

2 Likes

from my understanding, is that you want both left-right click select to be the same, right?it makes sense, however right-click does things differently than left since it separates selection from action and changing that will cause a lot of anger among right select users, it’s best not to touch it.

No. My point is that keyboard shortcuts that has nothing to do with selecting something per se should work the same whether left and right is preferred by the user.
Example I give is w and I do not understand why w when Left click is preferred also does not bring out Specials menu. Why should w be kept always - please see my arguments in OP. :slight_smile:

3 Likes

well they are making left click as an industry keymap and has no relation to right click so they are two different ones, one for the old users who used to right click selecting with it’s hotkeys and a new one for left click select that has only the most common hotkeys used by majority of 3d softwares, if you are trying to unify them then it won’t work because i asked for ‘w’ to stay ‘special menu’ but i was told that users prefer RMB for that.

no, they are maintaining three keymaps.

  • One industry standard keymap
  • Default left click select
  • The historic right click
1 Like

can you point out where they say that? because there is only two, the blender default with it’s left-right and the legacy from 2.7x with old right- left.

Is w industry standard for switching select type? In C4D it is coordinate system change.
N.B. I am for change and probably will switch to left click myself. But I’m eager to stick with supposed “Blender ideas about executing actions fast without mouse involvement”. Keyboard shortcuts FTW. I do also understand that I could remap w to continue do that, but IMHO w+something is muscle memory for so many blenderists and I do not see any reason not to keep w as specials (now called context menu) trigger for both left and right mouse users. What am I missing here?

1 Like

according to the design task it’s ‘Q’ and since ‘Q’ is for quick favorties then probably that’s why they put it in ‘W’.etc the keymap is not yet final it’s still work in progress and many things have not yet solved…here is the design task for it.
https://developer.blender.org/T54963

Agreed.

Agreed.

Agreed. (Leaving out philosophical concerns of stopping to question things :wink: )

Maybe.

I don’t think you are being strawman intentionally … maybe you are missing the point, maybe I have miscommunicated it somehow.

w is not about contextual menu per se, but well established keystroke that is followed by some other keystroke for very popular functionality within Blender for given context where w is called in the first place.

Let me put it this way.
Do you agree that contextual menu holds functions/actions that are most helpful for given context?
For example in edit mode you will get probably most popular actions that are done with meshes.
My specific example to illustrate the point is that mesh context menu holds subdivide, but you can replace it with any other popular action that is or will eventually be included in the context menu and is not accessible with other dedicated shortcut.

Assuming that you have not misinterpreted my OP then I have to assume that your comment holds belief that context menu belongs to right mouse button exclusively. Thus - in edit menu to do some popular action with mesh (i.e. subdivide) user has to press right mouse button and then do keystroke for that action (i.e., s). Or maybe choose yet longer path and actually after right clicking navigate with mouse to action (i.e. Subdivide) entry in the context menu GUI.

My argument is that context menu (which is simply holder of list for popular - relevant, curated, and agreed on by Blender devs and users - actions that are tied to the context) apart from pressing right mouse button should also be accessible by keystroke. Thus
right mouse click - keystroke or
right mouse click - navigate with pointer to action in menu - left click
should also be able to be achieved (which IMHO is much faster) with
keystroke - keystroke
in order to execute an action. If user is mouse guy, he/she can move through menus and shiny icons with pointer. If user is blender oldie where w'ing is way of life :slight_smile: or someone who discovers that muscle memory keystrokes win, he can do popular actions for current context with keyboard.

Don’t you agree?

1 Like

Are you even caring to pleople like me who dont want to use left click in any hypotesis?

I am, been using blender since 2.46 and always have defended right click. I mentioned that I could probably switch to left click myself, but it is just because i’m not full time blender, spend more time in ACAD/MCAD n’ stuff, so it would be easier to switch. But that is not my point, left vs right, but that whatever user chooses contextual menu should be able to be triggered with keystroke too (which currently RMB setting still does, but LMB does not).

Guys, don’t turn this to LMB vs RMB thread. :pleading_face:
And @ThinkingPolygons pleeeease stop adding fuel to the fire. Instead what about being able to fire specials menu with keystroke also in case of your beloved LMB setting?

Pablo seems getting custom to it and he is a hardcore right click user for years, i think few years from now this whole debate about left and right will be gone if blender keeps changing and a new system is introduced.

1 Like

i am not the one who make these changes, and how changing just one key will make it better, it seems you are confused what both keymaps do.

simple, while you press W, the mouse is already moving into the right menu entry due to muscle memory.
having to click to open the menu, breaks the mouse movement due to attrict and slow down your work.

1 Like

i think we are derailing too much, you won’t force me to use right select and i won’t force you to use left select lets leave it at that, my hope is in the future that devs make a new unified system tha uses a smart way for selection and action and remove this whole charade.

Or as in my case and probably others - after specials / contextual menu is brought up using w one does not uses mouse to finish the action (navigate to menu entry), for example w+s. Or for example in uv mapping w+x and others.

In case of LMB
L1 right mouse click - navigate with pointer to action in menu - left click
L2 right mouse click - keystroke
L3 keystroke - keystroke <----

In case of RMB
R1 keystroke - navigate with pointer to action in menu - left click
R2 keystroke - keystroke

This topic is to discuss why L3 is not here in regards to ease of use, faster actions, as well as consistency to execute such hotkey combos independent whether user chooses LMB or RMB workflow (L3 == R2). And I cannot find any reason not to have L3 OOB.

1 Like

I have realized another point.
People say that the left keymap is also for implementing support for pens but having a important menu in the pen button which was supposed to be hard to use isnt the same?

Did I understand correctly that w is somehow important for LMB keymap because of pen tablets?

I am asking that, they put the menu in right click, which means pen button also, for me is fine, but for those who say "Oh selecting with pen is hard because of right click… " wouldnt be as hard to open the menu?